- -- Start: Sunday, May 29, 1994 3:08:30 pm DUtime (EDT)
- DanielP turns Recorder on.
- PeterMR says:
- well done!
- (DanielP thinks: Got the answer )
- PeterMR says:
- 'status' now works
- DanielP says:
- Is Marcus coming?
- MarkB goes out.
- PeterMR says:
- No idea! we had so much to talk about that I forgot to ask! He is a splendid person
- MarkB has arrived.
- PeterMR says:
- This is very much a spare time activity for him
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- Seem a nice guy in cyberspace!
- PeterMR says:
- I think we are at a fairly critical stage. The course will get harder and we are (inevitably and valuably) getting into to some tough stuff on the listserv
- (DanielP thinks: He most have a lot of spare time )
- PeterMR says:
- so we are having to talk about inheritance, ownership, etc
- Katwoman arrives from nowhere.
- Atilla scampers beside Catgrrl and curls up on her lap when she sits down.
- Katwoman says:
- hi all
- Katwoman looks around
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- I guess that some of the consultants will have to handle the listserv discussion and others will working on projects
- BillH [to Katwoman]:
- Hi
- PeterMR says:
- my worry is that we aren't getting very much feedback from the more silent students. We could end up with 20 fantastic students who have done quite an advanced course!
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- I have been worrying about this since the second week of the course
- Katwoman Catgrrl magically disappears in a cloud of smoke.
- PeterMR says:
- I think the listserv and the projects will go quite well. But I don't count more than about 25-20 students at most signed up.
- yes you are right. IRL we would then go round the students and talk to them.
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- The respond to the call for project proposal has been timid
- PeterMR says:
- Well of course they weren't expecting all this! I think some of them thought they could do the course in 2 hours /week. I don't think that is realistic.
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- I feel that the biggest problems so far is the difficulty to get any kind of real commitment
- MarkB inserts a dime into the coke machine, and out drops a Classic Coke.
- PeterMR says:
- The problem is that it isn't easy for us to *limit* what we cover in the course. Extended dicussions of this sort aren'rt easy over the net. even now
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- That's why i find this env a great place
- PeterMR says:
- The other problem is that really to do C++ at all, you have to do a *lot* or it isn't really C++
- Oh, I love it as well. But want the 8 (?) of us can't easily do is sit down at the bar and agree on where we are all going to set the limits
- BillH says:
- But, shouldn't we remember that this is an *introduction* to C++?
- PeterMR says:
- It's really this general admistration that is going to be tough. For example, if we were teaching pascal I suspect we wouldn't have so much trouble since we could define the areas much more closely
- MarkB goes home.
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- I thought like you until I saw the respond to the first survey
- BillH says:
- But I think experienced people are here because there is no other course offered now.
- PeterMR says:
- Youre right, Bill. Trouble is that the students have been so enthusiastic that we are inevitably aiming rather high. Stroustrup says that every computing projects pushes against the limits (or something like that)
- Another problem is that I think all of us have pluses and minuses about bits of the language and they come in very early in the course
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- I am not sure that I agree, what makes it difficult is the very different expectation and availability of the ppl involved
- BillH says:
- But, that will change when there are courses at different levels being offered at the same time.
- PeterMR says:
- yes, daniel. It *is* the spectrum, really. For example, today I got a mail from a student who was having to prepare a class for freshmen (?) doing pascal
- DanielP says:
- There is a lot of ppl because C++ is very popular right now
- PeterMR says:
- that would be a lot easier.
- I suspect that we really need to do another survey. and really be honest with ourselves and the students - although the admin of that is difficult
- Amethyst_Guest arrives from nowhere.
- PeterMR says:
- hi amthyst - are you a student?
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- I don't want to have another 80 messages in my mailbox, it make me sick not to read all my mail (but I cannot do otherwise)
- Amethyst_Guest says:
- No, I just came by for information on this GNA C++ Class.
- BillH looks at Sandra_Burke
- PeterMR [to Amethyst_Guest]:
- fine. We are discussing the strategy!
- Amethyst_Guest ahhs.
- PeterMR says:
- I think we may have to ask some of the students to help us with the admin. e.g. find some who have a bit of time and mail a group of, say, 10 to get a real feedback
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- I would really have prefered to have a greater response from the students for projects. It would have been easier to go along that direction
- PeterMR says:
- We don't even have a central list of which students have ever been to the MOO or which have joined up for projects
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- That would be a very good idea, but do we have many volonteers?
- PeterMR says:
- There was one speaker at WWW94 who was very useful.
- DanielP says:
- On which aspects?
- PeterMR says:
- This guy (I forget name at present) ran a class on relativity. he used a conferenceing system CONFER
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- What kind of conferencing system?
- PeterMR says:
- rather like our listserv. Then he appointed 2 students each week to act as 'agents' and post questions for the others to answer. I think we might do something like that. I.e. find the silent bstudents and give them tasks to get them more involved.
- I have to go now IRL :-) sorry!
- PeterMR has disconnected.
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- About the students who are using the MOO, the only stats is the one I got by counting how have connected. I went through half of my group
- Amethyst_Guest [to Ken]:
- Hi there!
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- What do you think about this projects business?
- (DanielP thinks: Marcus isn't coming )
- BillH says:
- Maybe some students don't have the time to spend on a project, but want and can spend time learning about C++ programming.
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- But I remember that some of them were asking for projects for a "good way to learn"
- RayS arrives from nowhere.
- DanielP waves RayS
- BillH says:
- Some people prefer to learn in different ways. A project seems to emphasize a particular area.
- Diego arrives from nowhere.
- Diego says:
- Hi!
- BillH says:
- Just doing exercises and various topics gives a broader view of C++
- DanielP [to Diego]:
- Hi
- BillH [to Diego]:
- Hi
- BillH [to RayS]:
- Hi
- Assistants of the local psychology institute arrive to cart PeterMR off to their dream-research labs.
- Diego says:
- You are on meeting, right?
- BillH says:
- Yes, this is the meeting
- DanielP [to Diego]:
- and you are welcome to join in
- Diego says:
- Ok, then I'll return later. I just wanted to ask a couple of questions.
- Diego waves.
- Diego [to DanielP]:
- Thanks! Then I'll stay for a moment....
- Diego sits in a corner and listens....
- BillH [to Diego]:
- What's your question?
- DanielP says:
- I think that Diego and Ray can type "read dan's_tape" to read the earlier part of the discussion
- Diego [to BillH]:
- It's more a comment. On section 5 of chapter 3 there's a line reference that is wrong. I wanted to ask who I tell that to.
- BillH [to Diego]:
- Send e-mail to marcus, I think
- (BillH thinks: That's what I do when I find these types of errors )
- Diego [to BillH]:
- Ok. I'll read the transcript now, and maybe join the meeting in a moment...
- Diego says:
- See you later, guys!
- DanielP says:
- My feeling at the moment is that projects at this time is not generating a lot of interest (it might turn out that it is going to be a one man (woman) show
- Diego waves.
- (Diego thinks: I better stay )
- BillH says:
- I think some students who don't know C++ might just want to learn the syntax, features etc of C++ without doing a project. They can do simple exercises to try out a new aspect of C++, like inheritence or operator overloading
- DanielP [to Diego]:
- You are *very* welcome to stay
- Diego [to Dani
- >> Network buffer overflow: 84 lines of output to you have been lost <<
- DanielP [to Sandra_Burke]:
- It was post in a message by Marcus after my message on a interesting stat (but these might have been sent to gna-c++-consultants
- RayS [to DanielP]:
- Minimal because of time?'
- The wall twists and groans as it tries to force itself into the shape of k. With a crack it snaps back into shape.
- DanielP [to RayS]:
- Mininal amount of time
- Diego says:
- We all know that it's difficult to get participation from the students even when they are physically together in a classroom. Now think about a virtual distributed classroom....
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- I think that this is our problem
- BillH says:
- Yes, it is difficult to get participation. But we also want to help those who are getting lost and left behind
- RayS [to BillH]:
- So, do we gently prod them with msg say once a wk or something?'
- (BillH thinks: I believe that is why we want to find the status of all the students. We don't want to go too fast or too slow in the course )
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- My experience with teaching has been the more "user-friendly" it is the better. They want to be able to solve a particular problem with what you are teaching. That's why I favored the project approach
- PeterMR arrives from nowhere.
- PeterMR waves to all
- BillH [to RayS]:
- That is what we are trying to determine. What is the best way to get feedback on the status of students.
- Diego waves to PeterMR.
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- But how do we know who is getting left behind?
- RayS wave to PeterMR
- Diego says:
- I think there's little to do if we don't count on the students' participation. If you send out another survey and the students don't answer, you can do little to get them moving....
- Diego sighs.
- PeterMR wonders whether we might consult jeanne
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- I think that the two surveys were about right on the effort involved by the students, what is needed is someone who would volunteer to get the answers and give us a summary
- RayS [to BillH]:
- Maybe a progress sheet could be put together and a student req'd to submitt it each wk or two'
- Diego says:
- Anyway, each of us (students) registered because we wanted to learn something, and each of us is responsible for his/her actions. You can't be chasing us all the time.
- BillH says:
- That's the problem to see who is being left behind. Some might already be left behind because of the several projects which have been established, but which they feel they can't do becuase they don't know C++ yet. The projects are discussing some advanced issues now, which some might not be able to follow now
- PeterMR thinks it is a good idea to get students to submit something regularly
- BillH [to RayS]:
- I think a progress report is an option.
- PeterMR agrees will bill's analysis
- The wall twists and groans as it tries to force itself into the shape of Allan. With a crack it snaps back into shape.
- Sandra_Burke says:
- is the concern failure to achieve the goals of the community and concern for the community or is it more your role to provide the service of the class without trying to control the students directly?
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- If we ask students to submit something regularly who will tabulate the results
- BillH [to Sandra_Burke]:
- I think it is all the points that you mention.
- PeterMR is seeing whether GNA has any resources'
- PeterMR knows that GNA has put some thought into this
- DanielP [to Sandra_Burke]:
- We simply don't have a good idea of our "clientele" and this is deadly in a rl business
- PeterMR [to Sandra_Burke]:
- also the variation in expectations is enormous
- Sandra_Burke says:
- is this as important in a virtual environment - tracking clientele?
- PeterMR [to Sandra_Burke]:
- problem is we don't know whether we are teaching/consulting well w/o feedback
- DanielP [to Sandra_Burke]:
- There is never been a course like this, this is a dream, it is hard to make it come true
- BillH [to Sandra_Burke]:
- It is even more important in a virtual environment
- (DanielP thinks: Agree with Bill )
- RayS [to Sandra_Burke]:
- Yes, I believe tracking is important too.'
- Diego says:
- I have to go now. See you later, guys!
- Diego waves.
- Diego suddenly disappears.
- BillH [to diego]:
- bYe
- RayS wave bye to Deigo
- Sandra_Burke waves bye
- BillH [to Sandra_Burke]:
- bye
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- Does Marcus keep a list of "unused" volunteer?
- PeterMR says:
- we really have to have some administrative support. That is what I am trying to ask Jeanne about
- doesn't have to be a C++ volunteer.
- BillH says:
- Should we asked the students how they would like to give the consultants feedback. And offer some other suggestions for doing this?
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- You are right
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- I think this is a very good idea
- PeterMR says:
- It needs to be someone who can take the time to mail the students. It's a generic GNA problem. If they don't get it right now It will some back later
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- Do you volunteer to write a short message to the students about this
- BillH says:
- Can you have a listserv that just logs to WWW, but sends nothing back to those on the list? We can then use it for the surveys without flooding people with mail?
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- The person to ask just left, it is Diego
- PeterMR [to BillH]:
- what we need there is a forms server
- PeterMR says:
- I really hestiate to ask Diego to do that as well, but it is quite easy to set up if you know how
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- Do you know more about this form business?
- BillH says:
- Do forms server already exist?
- PeterMR says:
- Yes - did you see the voting for WWW94? that's the sort of thing. Diego or Laura could easily do it, but its hardly fair
- DanielP agrees with PeterMR, Diego has made his contribution to this course
- RayS [to PeterMR]:
- What is a forms server?'
- PeterMR says:
- you need a http server. We have desy, mit and ? diego's. we need someone else. Perhaps we'd get a vlonuteer.
- (BillH thinks: I had trouble voting for WWW94. Didn't always see the vote button. )
- PeterMR says:
- a forms server is part of the cgi interface (cf laura's project). To set up a form, you just tweak the html
- but you need something to capture the replies.
- BillH says:
- And maybe restrict who can read it?
- DanielP says:
- OK, who volunteer to look furthur into this? :-)
- PeterMR suddenly disappears.
- BillH says:
- I liked diego logging of the email stuff on the WWW. It is very easy and convient to read. How does the forms server work?
- (DanielP thinks: We don't have the expertise here to spend more time on this topic )
- (BillH thinks: Diego method may be better than forms server for surveys )
- RayS [to BillH]:
- Are we talking about parsing?
- Sandra_Burke inserts a dime into the coke machine, and out drops a Diet 7-Up.
- Sandra_Burke sits down at Teacher's Desk. . .
- BillH [to RayS]:
- No. Just ease of sending the survey by the student and ease of reading them by the consultant.
- RayS [to BillH]:
- Ah.'
- BillH [to RayS]:
- No. I haven't read any output from form servers. (as far as I know)
- RayS [to BillH]:
- So, we want to collect data and convert it to readable info?
- DanielP says:
- I think that Peter went to look for more info and help, the other important topic is the projects. What do we do with them for the moment?
- BillH says:
- We have agreed we need student feedback weekly or bi-weekly? And the question is how to get it? Listserv or forms server or other methods?
- RayS [to BillH]:
- Yes. Yes. Unknown.
- BillH [to danilep]:
- What about the projects?
- DanielP says:
- Does someone has easy access to the web at the moment, there was one message by Marcus about the possibility of going through the first 7 chaps
- RayS [to DanielP]:
- I remember something of a msg of that sort.
- DanielP says:
- I believe that if we leave the projects in the present situation, we'll ended with a few one-(wo)man shows. I would like that we try to support some of them more strongly (and hope that they become the show piece for future version of this course
- BillH [to danilep]:
- Why do you think that? I thought the projects had at least 3 people each.
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- Just an impression, I don't have any info on the participation on the different project, do you have some?
- BillH [to danilep]:
- I saw a project registration list on the www.
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- I haven't seen it
- So there were at least 3 ppl for most of the projects?
- BillH [to danilep]:
- I'm trying to see where it is on www right now.
- Sandra_Burke is curious about any responses to the mentoring Open University model
- DanielP [to Sandra_Burke]:
- Which mentoring?
- I was a tutor, once, at the Open Learning Isntitute in Hong Kong (which was modeled on the OP). And I don't remember the mentor program (or facility)
- PeterMR arrives from nowhere.
- PeterMR says:
- hi folks, any progress?
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- What did you get from Jeanne?
- RayS [to PeterMR]:
- welcome back!
- BillH says:
- You can find info on all student projects on the WWW by doing http://info.desy.de/pub/uu-gna/html/cc/proj/index.html
- PeterMR says:
- I had a chat to Jeanne. I suspect we have to solve this ourselves - I haven't found a GNA forms server
- DanielP :-(
- PeterMR says:
- Shall I make some suggestions? ...
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- Go ahead
- Sandra_Burke [to PeterMR]:
- I was suggesting a mentoring system between consultants and students on a more personal level a consequence would be feedback
- DanielP [to Sandra_Burke]:
- The experience I had at OLI what not that good in this respect
- PeterMR says:
- OK. First we mail the students with what our problem is. Optimistically. Explain that we have to have some feedback on a difficult subject like C++
- (DanielP thinks: what <- was )
- PeterMR [to sandra.]:
- I suspect we are reaching the limit of the time we can spend for admin.
- (DanielP thinks: I will have to go in 15 min )
- PeterMR says:
- We explain to studs that we can only really get feedback from *project* groups
- PeterMR so will I!
- PeterMR says:
- Then we say: please - you have to belong to a project group or make way for someone else
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- Why is this?
- PeterMR says:
- We can have some quite simple projects. reinventing various wheels.
- the alternative is to have real tutorial groups. and hear directly from students
- Sandra_Burke [to PeterMR]:
- perhaps then there is a need to recruit consultants for a counseling role like other reallife universities
- PeterMR agress with sandra.
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- I thought that we had agreed in an earlier meeting that forcing students into projects was not realistic
- PeterMR says:
- youre probably right Daniel :-). that was a week ago!!! I forget very easily
- perhaps we are getting too twitchy?
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- But real tutorial in rl are easier to organize than in virtual life
- PeterMR says:
- on the otehr hand our aims change with what feedback we get
- DanielP smiles
- PeterMR says:
- verything is *very* difficult in virtual!!
- I tried to set up a w'shop for WWW94 with two others. We advertised on bionet. No takers!
- RayS says:
- "would forcing students into projects give us the data we need?"
- PeterMR [to RayS]:
- we would at least find something out about them.
- PeterMR says:
- perhaps we should make a clean break and divide the class into two streams?
- one lot projects - the other book followers. Trouble is I don't know whether the book followers
- will ask any questions
- DanielP [to PeterMR]:
- I think that MOO env for virtual tutorial is not ripe enough and a recipe for failure at this stage
- RayS [to PeterMR]:
- I think we need to give everyone _something_ to do--a project, if you please.
- PeterMR says:
- IRL I often ask the students to sort some of these things out cos they have more time to talk to each oterh. But here they are as helpless as us
- PeterMR agrees with daniel. MOO tutorials will be a real starin for me.
- PeterMR means 'strain
- PeterMR says:
- the great thing about projects is that it highlights the good students who can take a coordinating role
- PeterMR thinks that maybe by advertising the problem we shall get some volunteers to help coordinate more.
- RayS agrees with PeterMR.
- PeterMR suggest that he draft a letter and circulate it to consults tomorrow.
- PeterMR says:
- will then post it to students.
- will need to arm-twist someone to set up a form server or act as e-mail recipient
- DanielP says:
- Why don't we organize a "get to know each other week". All the consultants try to contact all the students and make sure that they will show up at least at one the office hours of some consultants. We could have some real time feedback
- PeterMR says:
- good idea daniel. As I said, I heard this talk at WWW94 where students had been required to
- talk an active part. But they had paid.
- have to go IRL
- Sandra_Burke says ditta to Danilp's idea
- PeterMR says:
- bye folks
- PeterMR has disconnected.
- (DanielP thinks: And it would give them an opportinity to visit this env )
- RayS [to DanielP]:
- Do you know what IRL is?
- DanielP [to RayS]:
- In Real Life
- RayS [to DanielP]:
- Where you calling from?
- DanielP [to RayS]:
- Montreal
- RayS [to DanielP]:
- S. Korea for me--been up all night.
- DanielP says:
- I have to go shortly, do we decide to go with Peter's idea and ask help from the students to show us the light. Or I propose a "get to knwo each other" week
- DanielP [to RayS]:
- It will be a hard monday morning!
- Assistants of the local psychology institute arrive to cart PeterMR off to their dream-research labs.
- RayS [to DanielP]:
- PeterMR said he was goint put out a letter--good idea.
- I like your idea too--let's do both.
- DanielP [to he]:
- will put it for consultants first, he said
- Sandra_Burke notes that the get to know sounds very positive
- DanielP [to RayS]:
- I don't think it is a very good idea, It will give the impression that there is a total confusion and will look disconforting to many
- RayS [to DanielP]:
- Yes. I had not thought of that.
- DanielP [to Sandra_Burke]:
- The problem is that it will involve all the consultants participation (I am not sure that we have it!)
- RayS [to DanielP]:
- As a thought, I would be happy to track and post student progress in a database.
- DanielP says:
- Since there is 80 students, I am willing to try to contact at most 20 personsso we need some consultants volunteers for the 60 others
- But first, do we go with Peter's suggestions or mine (I don't like to be in this "conflict of interest" position but I really have to go shorly
- RayS says:
- "I could contact 10 or so--just need addresses."
- RayS [to DanielP]:
- I would prefer to have a real time forum as opposed to e-mail.
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- What is your position?
- BillH [to DanielP]:
- I'm not sure. We can start with yours and Peter's suggestions.
- (DanielP thinks: Did we have lost Bill? )
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- But one of us will work for nothing
- BillH [to DanielP]:
- What do you mean?
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- Peter said he will draft a letter and I would have to do something similar too but only one will be used
- BillH [to DanielP]:
- I don't think they are mutually exclusive. Can't both be done?
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- I have posted an earlier remark about this, do you want me to paste it back?
- (DanielP thinks: When will I go? )
- BillH says:
- Ok
- DanielP [to RayS]:
- I don't think it is a very good idea, It will give the impression that there is a total confusion and will look disconforting to many
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- At least we cannot do it simultaneously
- BillH says:
- I assume that it is not a good idea to e-mail help from students on how best fo get feedback?
- Is that what you mean?
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- This is ok, but we cannot tell them to come to see us at the same time
- BillH says:
- Maybe you should recap the two suggestions?
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- I have to go
- BillH [to DanielP]:
- Ok. Bye
- RayS [to daneilp]:
- see ya later.
- DanielP [to BillH]:
- We will let Peter goes ahead, and maybe propose my idea later
- RayS waves bye to danielp.
- BillH says:
- ok.
- RayS says:
- OK
- DanielP says:
- please someone have the recorder off when they leave
- DanielP waves
- BillH says:
- I will turn it off
- DanielP bye
- DanielP has disconnected.
- RayS [to BillH]:
- I guess it is all settled now???
- BillH says:
- I think there are several suggestions which will have to be decided upon still.
- I don't think only one has to be chosen though.
- RayS [to BillH]:
- Yes, I do see room for many avenues.
- BillH says:
- The idea about students meeting on the MOO even if they don't have questions is a good idea, I thought. This is another way to get feedback for the consultants as well as the students for them to see how others are doing.
- RayS [to BillH]:
- Yes. Is having telnet capability a req'mt of the course?
- BillH says:
- No. But, I think most have telnet. Maybe not MOSAIC and WWW access.
- Assistants of the local psychology institute arrive to cart DanielP off to their dream-research labs.
- BillH says:
- Do you are Sandra_Burke have any more comments or questions?
- RayS [to BillH]:
- Nope. It's bedtime--6:45am, Monday.
- BillH [to RayS]:
- You been up all night?
- RayS [to BillH]:
- Yep. I waited for this meeting.
- BillH says:
- That's dedication.
- Well, let's adjourn this meeting.
- RayS [to BillH]:
- Sounds good. Talk at y'all later.
- BillH says:
- Bye
- Sandra_Burke waves bye
- RayS says:
- Bye
- -- End: Sunday, May 29, 1994 5:47:56 pm DUtime (EDT)